| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
342
   |
Posted - 2013.04.29 17:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:Right, and how do reasonable people learn things? Do they walk into a room and blurt out moronic statements until people are forced to correct them?
Some college argument and debate classes are like this, and I suppose yes you do learn things.
For one they each people to avoid personal attacks and belittling of the opponent.
I mean the professor will most likley give bad marks to the person who called their opponent stupid even if the person in question said something that had little to do with factual reality.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
347
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 22:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Also keep in mind, most space isn't rolling in high value moons, so this moon goo subsidized industry only works for a few alliances holding a bunch of the best moons.
I don't know. I hear that CCP Soundwave hates passive income.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
347
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 22:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
Liz Laser wrote:Tippia wrote:By the way, is this a good time to point out that putting in 250k man-hours a month mining ice (in highsec) produces more wealth than all tech moons in the game? [b]Or that keeping those tech moons running requires roughly 250k man-hours a month worth of work? The part I bolded is rather fascinating. Where does it come from?
Should it matter? Either the tech moons are profitable or not. If they aren't then somone should fire the alliance's accountant.
I mean think of it like this.... If a POS operation takes 100 million to operate for every 110 million it makes which leaves you 10 million profit. Sure that is only 10% profit, but if it's technically throwing away money if you don't perform the POS operations.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
347
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 23:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tippia wrote:An old thread where some moron tried to claim that moongoo was unbeatable as an income source. It turned out that a single high-end moon provides 5bn a month and requires about 500 man-hours a month to do soGǪ incidentally, 500 man-hours of highsec ice mining provides about 5bn a month.
Hrm... I'm not a moon goo baron so I don't know the process it takes, but where exactly are the 500 man hours come from? I know the POS interface is horrid, but are we talking about that or the logistics it takes to get ice to fuel the moon goo harvesters?
I mean if I didn't know any better, it would seem the easiest route would to mine ice and sell it directly and no make moon go at all.
Surely someone has realized this? Why still make moon produts?
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
347
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 23:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:They require 24/7 security in the form of fleets of hundreds of ships.
So you mean people sit there 24/7 in local waiting for something to happen?
Surely these ships wouldn't be doing other things like roams and ratting in the meantime?
Otherwise, it sounds to me like moon goo is a foolish endevor and you might as well be ice mining?
I mean if it makes the same amount of money, why aren't you on your alts in hi-sec blasting away ice roids?
Surely that would just as exciting as sitting in a hundred man fleet watching local for hours on end.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
347
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 23:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Yah, calling up a 200 player fleet to go deal with timers for a few hours each month is pretty standard as far as nullsec warfare goes.
Even something like OTEC only applies to OTEC members not taking each other moons. It has no real effect on upstarts sniping at OTEC or other moons. This stuff happen all the time. The Asakai incident was over a moon mining POS.
So aside from the basic POS maintainance that goes on, we do deploy (and reimburse) fleets that deal with moon taking and defending fairly often.
I'm confused. If moon goo is worthless why lose billions worth of ships just to defend them.
I have never seen an ice miner war on the same proportion.
Although that would be interesting to see.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
347
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 23:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Yah, calling up a 200 player fleet to go deal with timers for a few hours each month is pretty standard as far as nullsec warfare goes.
Even something like OTEC only applies to OTEC members not taking each other moons. It has no real effect on upstarts sniping at OTEC or other moons. This stuff happen all the time. The Asakai incident was over a moon mining POS.
So aside from the basic POS maintainance that goes on, we do deploy (and reimburse) fleets that deal with moon taking and defending fairly often.
I'm confused. If moon goo is worthless why lose billions worth of ships just to defend them. The post you quoted says nothing of the sort. Like literally not even something remotely perceivable as such.
I'm talking to you as a collective front as some of you have stated that moon goo makes just as much as ice mining per hour. He didn't say it directly but persons on the same side of the argument did say that.
I'm trying to pry out of you that you must have some alterior reason to hold moons as you seem to put forth a lot of effort in keeping them for as little as money you seem to be making.
I mean if moons weren't valuable then why the effort? I'm pretty sure CCP isn't forcing you to run them.
If you are doing it because it makes you feel good, then isn't that someone of value to that ice miner's don't get.
I can't remember the last time I put together a 500 man fleet to go ice mining.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
347
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 23:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: Like others pointed out, moon goo isn't worthless.
Some moons are worth more than other though. Some are worth sending out huge fleets to take or defend.
And you don't see this with ice because ice belts in their current form are effectively limitless and the vast majority of the harvesting is done in highsec where warring over it is complicated. But is does happen (see; Gallente Ice Interdiction)
So what I am getting from this is that moon goo is valuable and makes null a much richer place than it would without it. At least richer enough to spend hundreds of man hours and billions worth of ships?
And if that is true, then isn't it true that moon goo is a comparative advantage for null sec compared to hi-sec. (Even if its just something you'd rather be doing with your time).
Otherwise, you would be ice mining for your profits, no?
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
347
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 23:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:I'm talking to you as a collective front as some of you have stated that moon goo makes just as much as ice mining per hour. GǪand at no point did anyone say that moongoo was worthless. It was just something you made up. Quote:I mean if moons weren't valuable then why the effort? No-one said they weren't valuable either GÇö again, you made it up. You should probably take this opportunity to look up the concept of a strawman argument and check out why it's not a very good thing to try to use.
You specifically said ice mining was just as profitable as moon harvesting. I did not specifically say it was worthless. I just said it seems that you are saying that you do not think it more valuble than 500 man hours of ice harvesting.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
347
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 23:48:00 -
[10] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:"Comparative advantage" is improperly applied. Furthermore, the relative "economic profit" (look it up) of ice mining versus moonmining isn't in question. Nobody is complaining that moons should have more value to account for the hours spent.
I'm sorry. It is just that what people get from these threads is that people in Null claim moon mining isn't as valuable as other people make it out to be. If you are saying they are valuable and worth the effort, then I'll accept that answer.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
347
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 23:57:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:You specifically said ice mining was just as profitable as moon harvesting. Yes? That does not make moon harvesting worthless or moons not valuable. Quote:I did not specifically say it was worthless. You just specifically asked why people mined moon goo, seeing as how it was worthless GÇö a claim that no-one did but you. So yes, yes you did.
Maybe my grasp of diatribe is failing me, but last I checked asking a question was not making a statment. You can make a loaded question, but if I was asking a question I was not telling you "X fact was true", I was asking you "If X fact was true, then why does Y happen?"
I see that I forgot to type a ? but I'm pretty sure the sentence started with an "if" and contained a "why".
I was just asking if you think it worthless as much as ice mining is (relative worthless), then why do people fight over it.
I was simply trying to get you to say "Yes it valuable and worth fighting for." so perhaps it was loaded.
Hopefully I have not made you mad in the process.
Anyways... Given that everyone is saying that "Yes, it is valuable" then doesn't that mean its something null-sec has that hi-sec doesn't have. Unless you would rather be ice mining.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
347
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 23:59:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:I'm sorry. It is just that what people get from these threads is that people in Null claim moon mining isn't as valuable as other people make it out to be. If you are saying they are valuable and worth the effort, then I'll accept that answer. It sounds like you're gearing up to assume that the two are mutually exclusive. People are saying both at once because both are true, so what you should be doing is accepting both answers rather than just one of them.
What do you mean? That both are valuable and not worth the effort?
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
347
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 00:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:Yes, nullsec has moonmining and hisec does not.
I'm glad that we have established this fact.
At this point, I want to say that I am thankful that I got everyone to speak their mind on the subject and to increase the thread count.
I actually had an overlying point to make, but in the process of getting everyone to communicate, I forgot what it was.
I want to thank everyone for answering the questions concisely and truthfully. It is interesting to scalp away all the little details about certain operations.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
347
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 00:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:At this point, I want to say that I am thankful that I got everyone to speak their mind on the subject and to increase the thread count. May I suggest using the search function next time, because you got exactly nothing new out of your trolling. 
I beg to differ. I'm not playing a single player game where all the answers are simply given to me by a computer program. I come for the player interaction and this thread delivered in spades. Thank you again.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
349
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 13:36:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tippia wrote:This is balanced out by nullsec's havingGǪ what?
I thought we agreed that last night Moon goo was a valuable and important resource worth fighting for that isn't present in hi-sec.
I remember you saying that the output of man hours of moon goo for 5 billion was roughly the same as 5 billion worht of hi sec ice. Seems like an equivalent exchange of a balanced system.
I suppose you can always say "But we have to fight and lose ships over moon goo!"
But isn't that half the fun? Think about actually enjoying combat instead of sitting and watching your ice ming laser cycles. Seems like you've got something more than ice miners do.
Unless of course you don't want to pvp, which is also an acceptable answer.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
349
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 13:45:00 -
[16] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Power in nullsec comes from organisation, experience and commitment, not wealth.
Didn't someone brandish a chart around showing that null sec lost more hull wealth than any other sec?
Certainly, if they are loosing that much, it must mean they have wealth to throw away.
Of course, it could be that it was all gathered by null players with hi-sec alts. If that is true, then why break the cycle?
Would all these null-sec alts move their money makers to null where they have to worry about awoxers, roams, and cloakers even if income was increased in null?
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
349
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 14:02:00 -
[17] - Quote
Tippia wrote:We also agreed that it was no more valuable than ice mining, so it doesn't balance anything out.
So, again, aaaaaall of those benefits highsec industry has is balanced out by nullsec havingGǪ what?
Good fights over moon goo?
Wouldn't having the benefit of actually getting out there and shooting things be fun?
Maybe if you don't like mechanics that bring about some modicum of PVP then I suppose maybe its not really a good thing.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
349
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 14:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:Good fights over moon goo? GǪwhich is not part of the industry sector. So, again, aaaaaall of those benefits highsec industry has is balanced out by nullsec havingGǪ what?
I don't know. It seems to me Null-sec is more of a collective front than individual persons performing industry, missions, or PVP.
So having the "good fight" benefits everyone in Null. Not just industrialists, but they get benefit too indriectly. I know that it kind of a weird concept.
Otherwise, I suppose the only thing I still see as silly is the fact that most people who want industry out there are probaly in hi-sec making the goods in question and contracting directly to their alliances.
If they want to move out null, that's fine. The money never leaves the alliance anyways.
It's just the industrial balance that null see's should also be applied to worm holes since a buff to null only benefits the alliances.
And if null does receive an industrial buff, they'll need to carebear up and bring miner's into their ranks as they'll still complain that they still have to buy goods from hi-sec as no one in their ranks wants to spend the time to mine it in null.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
349
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 14:42:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Or, even better, maybe you have an answer: aaaaaall of those benefits highsec industry has is balanced out by nullsec havingGǪ what?
Command and control of who produces what? And who get's what?
I don't think when null sec gets this industry buff are they going to throw open their arms to any old hi-sec carebear wanting to make goods in their POS (and possibly player owned stations if they give you that).
I mean if I had the ability to kick all my rivals out of hi-sec station because they wouldn't make me ammo and sell it to me at bargin prices, then that would be an extreme advantage.
It's not something you can measure in values of isk, but it is still a potent peice of power that an alliance has over those who produce goods in their space.
Of course I'm sure people won't be so strict to demand every alliance maker churns out X widget all day and sell them at a loss, but I'm sure alliance members will have suggestions to follow and no neutral scrub is going to get their dirty paws on the manufacturing lines to make anything at all.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
349
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 14:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:Command and control of who produces what? And who get's what? Nope, and it's not a part of the industrial sector even if they did. So, again, aaaaaall of those benefits highsec industry has is balanced out by nullsec havingGǪ what?
I am pretty sure if the powers that be only let me produce goods for them and kept any old scrubs out of the system that would have made competing products as quite an advantage.
It isn't something you can directly measure in isk, but it is an advantage for null sec industry.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
350
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 15:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:I am pretty sure if the powers that be only let me produce goods for them and kept any old scrubs out of the system that would have made competing products as quite an advantage. Sure. GǣIf.Gǥ Fortunately for the game, that's not how it works, and if it did, it would be an effects of politics rather than industry. So, again, aaaaaall of those benefits highsec industry has is balanced out by nullsec havingGǪ what?
Now, you are being stubborn. Politics, war, and industry go hand and hand.
You simply are acting like you believe that null-sec industrialists operate in a vacuum.
I am telling you although I participate very little in upper echelon politics that I know for a fact that neutrals are not allowed to use space for their own purposes (except for say CVA space).
This means that production facilities in these given areas of space are only allowed to be used by friendly parties.
If you cannot see that this an advantage over people where anyone, friendly or not, can simply waltz in and start making whatever they please, then I don't know if you can be convinced of how logic works.
Maybe if you clarified the following questions:
Do null sec alliances let non-friendly parties use their facilities?
Of those who get to use those facilities, do they now have less competition than if non-friendly parties could just show up and produce things?
Is having less competition an advantage for an industrialist?
If you answer yes to those three questions, then a null sec industrialist has an advantage of selling their goods diretly to their alliance. It is unlikley that a null sec industrialist would export back to hi-sec to compete there and given the choice of importing the goods versus buying it locally where they don't have to transport it, then the logical thing would be to buy it local.
And if they buy it local it means the null sec industrialist has an advantage over the hi-sec one.
If null-sec industrial output was made to be on parity to that of hi-sec, then hi would be at a disadvantage because they do not have acess to the null markets.
And I've already said once that I don't see a problem with buffing null as long as WH space output gets a buff as a viable place of industry too. Unless its impossible for you to accept that I agree with you and remain confrontational.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
350
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 15:34:00 -
[22] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:Now, you are being stubborn. No, I'm being precise. We're talking about the massive industrial imbalance between highsec and everywhere else. Some people are trying to claim that it doesn't exist but apparently can't demonstrate why. So, again, aaaaaall of those benefits highsec industry has is balanced out by nullsec havingGǪ what?
And I even spelled it out for you. Gave you three logical questions to answer and a premise of what the means if they were all true. Since you don't want to refute my argument by countering those points, then I guess that means I've won this round.
Sadly, that means I have failed in trying to teach you about command economies. That you still do not see how controlling the means of production is advantageous over a free for all market where anyone can produce willy nilly.
Also, I still see that you can't accept that I agreed with you (as long as WH becomes viable in industrial power too).
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
350
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 15:53:00 -
[23] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Aaaaaall of those benefits highsec industry has is balanced out by nullsec havingGǪ what?
I already told you several times. If you simply won't believe me, just tell me how random neutral scrubs use your alliance production facilities all the time and I'll accept that as a valid reason.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
350
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 16:07:00 -
[24] - Quote
So let me get this straight.... People get into groups of 500 man fleets and just sit there and watch moon extractors all day. Surely ther are better way to spend $14.95 a month.
Surely it would be impossible for one man to watch the the extractor and everyone else go ratting.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
351
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 19:16:00 -
[25] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:Agreed.
This forum war was already won months ago anyway. We're getting our way.
I like how even though it seems the devs will do something about it, everyone that supports null-sec industry seems so incensed and uppity about the issue that a threadnaughts must ensue every time someone questions the subject. It is almost as if they are afraid their position is so weak that the devs will change their mind any minute now.
Like I said before. I could care less if null-sec gets their industry buff. I just enjoy the drama that surrounds it.
I have a prediction:
Null sec will get their buff but they'll keep complaining until CCP actually puts isk in their pockets for them.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
351
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 19:27:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:I like how even though it seems the devs will do something about it, everyone that supports null-sec industry seems so incensed and uppity about the issue that a threadnaughts must ensue every time someone questions the subject. Maybe it has something to do with their questioning a subject that really isn't up for question at this point, ignoring all the facts and figures that support the reasoning behind the change, and trying to point the fingers away from an well-known and pretty much universally acknowledged design error.
Doesn't it make you so mad that you have to make post after post?
How much time have you spent on the forums today?
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
351
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 20:26:00 -
[27] - Quote
I'm begining to think that 500 man hours have been put into this thread.
Tippia, if you let them win this argument it means the devs will change their minds and they give all the industrial buffs to hi-sec.
Then you will be singlehandedly to blame for ruining null-sec.
I'll eagerly await for you on the 21st page of this thread.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
359
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 22:47:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ah. Page 21.... I said I'd say hello by this page. After the thread was locked and all those "gud posts" deleted, I thought we never make to this point.
I want to thank everyone who is so mad about the sorry state of Null sec industry that they are compelled to post constantly as they fear that if one person wins the argument that the devs will change their minds and give a buff to hi-sec instead.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
359
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 23:53:00 -
[29] - Quote
Kangaax wrote:My goal of forever is to make WH industry. Why can't we get moon poo as well 
I agree. Any buff that null sec gets WH should get an equal buff.
WH industry should be viable and competative with null and high sec.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
| |
|